Sunday, August 24, 2008

UPDATED Consistency Problems with Cui Dalin's Statement

updated 8/25, scroll down for update

From the New York Times article published Aug 24:

Cui Dalin, the vice minister of the General Administration of Sport of China, said He Kexin, the uneven bars Olympic champion, had moved from one team to another last year, and a wrong birth date was written on the registration forms for the new team.
“During the registration, there were some discrepancies in the age of the athlete, therefore that mistake has led to a series of misunderstandings afterward,” Cui said during a closing news conference for the Chinese sports delegation here. “I can say for sure the age of the Chinese gymnasts comply with the rules.”

I think we can all breathe easier now that officials are beginning to address the problems that so many have observed. However having spent some time studying the documents, I'm concerned about what I perceive to be a discrepancy. The alleged mistake led to at least three separate Excel spreadsheets, now deleted, showing a birthday for Kexin of Jan 1, 1994. This in itself is interesting. However my interest is in Cui's statement that the change occurred "last year". Last year was 2007, and as alert readers of this blog will recall, the Internet Archive has kept two copies of a document published to sport.gov.cn which establishes Kexin's birthday as 1-1-1994. The problem here is that the Internet Archive saved one of these copies in June of 2006, two years ago. Additionally, when the document was stored in the Internet Archive, the document contained a publication date of January 27, 2006. Neither of these dates is in the least bit consistent with Cui's statement.


update 8/25

And that's just the beginning of the problems with Cui's statement. I'll start with a summary, and I'll follow with documents. On this blog, I've listed (over time) four different documents: three Excel spreadsheets and a web page, all deleted from www.sport.gov.cn, the General Administration Sport China web site, and they are all available mirrored or cached online. Two of the documents are after the team transfer that Cui is referring to in his statement: these are the zctc.xls documents. One of them is the web page that documents the team transfer of He Kexin, this is the web page saved in the Internet Archive. The most important document, however, is 05ticao.xls, still saved in the Baidu cache at the time of this writing. Turns out "ticao" is the Pinyin for "gymnastics", so this document is basically "05gymnastics.xls". It predates the team transfer that Cui is speaking to. And all four documents show He Kexin's birthday as Jan 1 1994. How can a mistake a "year" ago made during a team transfer have affected He Kexin's records well before the team transfer, in 2005? Here's a link to Baidu cache of 05ticao.xls (this will expire someday soon, I'm reserving this space for a mirror link). It's a registry of gymnasts for 2005. For the following sectoin, you can copy and paste to search within the document to follow along. The document tells the gymnast totals:

注:总注册1016人;其中确认676人;首注329人;交流11人.
Total registration 1016 people, among which 676
people were previously registered, 329 people are
first-time registrations, and 11 people are "exchange".

These exchanged gymnasts are the exchanges that Cui is referring to in his statement, however, this year was not an exchange year for He Kexin. This was He Kexin's first registration year, see row 799:
799,"何可欣","女","1994.1.01","北京","北京","北京市体育局","首注"
799, He Kexin, F, 1994.1.01, Beijing, Beijing,
Beijing Municipal Sports Bureau, First Time Registration

Next the document identifies its originator:
体操中心体操部
(Gymnastics Center, Gymnastics Section)

And finally, the document contains its signing date:
2005-3-17

Cui's statement is not a reasonable explanation for the discrepancies that have been found. This list of gymnasts for 2005, published by Cui's organization, the General Administration of Sport China, lists He Kexin as having been born in 1994 during her first time registration. This is before her transfer in 2006, which is listed in this athlete exchange agreement archived by the Internet Archive in 2006. The team change that Cui cites in his statement as having happened a year ago actually happened two years ago, and He Kexin's original registration with a 1994 birthday in early 2005 is far too early to be explained by a mistake "last year".
end update


Now that Chinese officials have broken their silence on the inconsistencies that are surfacing, I'm hoping we can all expect a statement soon on the case of Jiang Yuyuan, whose name and government ID number appear in a government-hosted spreadsheet I linked to earlier this evening. Alert readers will of course realize that Chinese government ID numbers embed the birth date, hence the string "19931001" inside this government ID number should be addressed in any future clarifications.

In conclusion, here are links to the Internet Archive's 2006 copies of the athlete exchange agreement hosted on www.sport.gov.cn, Ciu Dalin's General Administration of Sport China.


Internet Archive history of document
Translated version of 2006 copy

54 comments:

bobby fletcher said...

The docutment you listed at the end is exactely what Cui is talking about. That data is from Wuhan, Hebei - where she was on an exchange program where the birthdate was in err.

Stryde said...

bobby... oops! Cui was talking about "last year" according to the NY Times article, and that document is from two years ago. Careful analysis will aid your arguments. Thanks for posting!

bobby fletcher said...

He Kexin was on the exchange program to Wuhan, Hebei for two years.

Please read the documents you found, they all mention this fact.

Stryde said...

bobby we appear to be mis-communicating. i understand and agree. my point is that the public statement posted in the new york times today by Cui Dalin states that the mistake with He Kexin's age happened last year. and i have linked to a two year old document of the web site of his administration which lists her birthday as 1-1-1994. the inherent problem is that a mistake a year ago cannot affect a two year old document without the aid of time travel. hope this helps.

Neil Benson said...

great work. Unfortunately the IOC will do nothing. They won't take on China. Besides I'm sure "authentic birth certificates now exist for He and anyone else in question. If the US govt can lie about WWMD don't you think China can get away with a smaller one? I did three posts on my blog about this so I didn't let go easily.

Heather said...

I am SO glad you addressed this comment by Cui! I saw it just a moment ago while checking up on the news and it honestly made me laugh. How a single administrative error could lead to the multitude of references - both within government documents and Chinese media - for the past several years, both about He Kexin AND other athletes, is downright laughable. I would love to hear from a statistician just how likely it would be for clerical errors to account for the age discrepancies of two athletes on the same team at the same Olympics. That seems pretty far fetched.

Also, just wanted to note, I spotted a typo: "The alleged mistake led to at least three separate Excel spreadsheets, now deleted, showing a birthday for Kexin of Jan 1, 2004."
Shouldn't that be Jan, 1 1994? I'm sure that's what you meant, so I just thought I'd point it out.
Anyway, great work as always! And of course, if you need anything, just email!

bobby fletcher said...

Here's another report of Cui's comment:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/beijing/gymnastics/2008-08-24-gymnasts_N.htm

Cui said the gymnast changed teams and in so doing, "during registration, there were discrepancies that led to other misunderstandings."

The registration Cui refered to occured 2 years ago when He Kexin went on the exchange program.

I don't know what Cui really said, since translating from Chinese to English may lose context and pick up noise, as translation often do.

Rob Miller, Ph.D. said...

Apparently, the Chinese have perfected the technology for time travel. Unfortunately, clerical errors are permitted to travel through these time vortices also.

If I read it correctly, one of the documents was from 2005 and another from February 2006. Both show a change in their team, but the Deputy Minister was clearly referring to "last year", i.e. 2007.

Is he suggesting that their birthdates were wrong for more than two years and no one, not even the athletes themselves, discovered the error in the National Registry?

The motive is obvious. China wanted to win as many Gold medals as possible in their games and these girls were the best they had. If they were only 14, not only would they be unable to compete in 2008, they would be past their prime in 2012 at the ages of 18 and probably unable to compete in 2016.

I'm sure the same government that issued false passports is capable of forging other false identity documents. The FIG (leaf) of the IOC is likely to allow China to save face rather than challenge them. There's no chance they'll use forensics to determine the authenticity of the new information.

You did a great job. Please keep up the information flow. China and those athletes will wear tarnished gold for the rest of their lives.

DengLinlinFan said...

Question?? Is a person not allowed to post one of his previous "post's or comment's" on one of your newer topics because he would like a chance for more people to view, contemplate and indeed respond to his thoughts. If this post does not end up in the comments section of this topic, I guess I will have my answer.


Speaking in Defense of The Little one, The Incomprable Miss Deng LinLin

or Miss LinLin Deng ( if the whole surname or family name thing throws you off a bit !!! )

I am a fan of fair play just like the next person, but W H Y ???????? were they allowed to begin competing if there were this many questions about their ages in the first place. To let them get all the way through the competion, have them WIN it, and only then start-up with this ” Gee, does’nt she look kind of young ” business, is just IDIOTIC.

You know, had the US team actually beatin the Chinese Team then none of this would have been an issue, Corporate America would have been content, money would have been made, and everyone would have been Happy. But I guess we can’t sell as many boxes of “Wheaties” with young smiling Chinese faces on the cover now can we???

If they had disqualified these “Little Girls” prior to the beginning of the competion then that would have been FINE. But to let them begin and finish competing before starting this witch-hunt is complete NON-SENSE

My “problem” is that they ( The Chinese Team ) were allowed to begin competing in the first place. And Since they were ALLOWED TO BEGIN that in my mind is where the case is closed on this.

Since the governing body of the olympics deemed that they were suitable to begin the competion, and they infact worked there little under-aged rearends off and WON the competion. I find it incredibly Chicken Bleep and Offensive that everyone involved decided to take a wait and see what happens approach to this. Had they ( China ) finished in 2nd pl, or lower, then the big powerful US team would have been content with this and not raised a fuss at all. They may have even complimented the poor little Chinese girls for putting up a ” Heck of a fight ” all the while snickering behind their backs ” We Kicked their Butt’s ”

Ms. Karolyi said it herself ” Bring them on, we will beat them at any age “. OOOOPPPPSSSS!!!! Ms. Karolyi, you got your butt kicked and cannot deal with it. So now you and your band of Stuck-up Brats are doing the only thing that you can do, MOPE and POUT and cry CHEATERS !!!

So in the future, should the USA want to avoid another butt kicking on the world stage they may want to file there grievances a little SOONER and not wait to see if they get an outcome that they were not expecting.

THIS IS SOUR GRAPES, MAKE NO MISTAKE.

Cindy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Chloe said...

It is documented that He Kexin was on a 2-year exchange, ending at the end of 2007. She transferred her team representation at the end of 2005 or beginning of 2006. What Cui Dalin is saying is that her birth date was recorded incorrectly during the team representation transfer process (from representing her native Beijing to representing Wuhan) -- i.e. the error started at the end of 2005 or beginning of 2006 and that carried over during the entire time she was representing Wuhan (so at meets like InterCity Games, it's Wuhan doing the registration for her, and they've register the erroneous DOB they had all along).

DengLinlinFan said...

In Defense of The Little One, The Incomprable Miss Deng Linlin.

Offering a fresh new perspective on the topic that is sweeping the nation: SCREW the US girls, It is all about the young beautiful Chinese girls and what is ultimately best for them.

Today's topic - CHEATING

The Chinese Womans/Girls Gymnastics Team has infact CHEATED. CHEATING is wrong and should not be rewarded. Fine, well let’s lock-up the little rule breakers in some work camp near outer Mongolia. There they can mine for coal or perhaps some other natural resources that will help keep all of our lightbulb’s running or keep us warm and comfortable during our harsh winter season.

And by all means, let’s give the Gold Medal’s back to their rightful owners, The Heroic US team, who I promise you cares more about their pending endorsment deals than actually winning Gold Medals. I would have loved to have seen their Pouting , Sulking , Moping faces on my next box of “Wheaties”, but I guess they would have needed to actually win the Gold for that, and they didn’t. And THAT is truely what this is all about.

No matter how you slice it the scoreboard reads:

CHINA - GOLD

USA - SILVER

It would be best if the USA just accepted their defeat in the team event of womans gymnastics for 2008 and began practicing hard for those 2012 London Games, Where we assure you they will be dealt another swift beating at the hands of the superior ( in every way ) Chinese team.

Our Hero Miss Deng, will be at least 17 by then and more than likely the captain of our powerful squad.

We will be waiting!!!

DengLinlinFan said...

I hope you are just " down for the night " I have submitted several valid arguement post's and would like to see them posted so that i might field questions regarding my point of view. If there is some kind of problem with my post's, you have my e-mail - let me know whats up and i will see if i can correct the issue, if you are simply " down for the night " then i understand and i will see you in the morning. Of course there is no real reason to post this comment because it is more of a question out of curiousity for you Stryde, Thank you

dimtick said...

I know that you've found posts that she He's age as 14 when you search with "1994" as a keyword. my question is what happens if you search with 1992? is there an equal amount (or more) from prior to 2007 that indicate her age as 16?
personally you've convinced me that China is cheating. they've certainly done it before. I'm just wondering how far back the coverup goes?

Chuck

James said...

The "investigation" was not initiated because of Team USA's complaints. It was initiated because of people like Stryde Hax bring these inconsistencies to light. And others have been doing the same since well before 8/8/08:

http://news.google.com/news?svnum=10&hl=en&ned=us&as_qdr=m&as_drrb=b&as_mind=26&as_minm=7&as_maxd=1&as_maxm=8&geo=&aq=f&ncl=1230593655

Retroactively changing the results because of altered gymnast age has happened before. It's good that the FIG and IOC do this, because China is also a past offender. Chinese gymnast Yang Yun, bronze medalist in the uneven bars in 2000, admitted to lying about her age:

http://en.epochtimes.com/n2/opinion/he-kexin-not-the-first-chinese-age-fraud-3224.html

garyandyvonne said...

The Chinese explanation [Cui] doesn't pass the smell test. The age issue came up originally not after the Chinese won the gold team medal, but several weeks earlier. The Chinese position has been that the gymnasts have valid passports and the IOC has repeatedly said that valid passports are evidence of the gymnasts age.

Essentially this is the honor system. So does anybody really believe that somebody or some country who is cheating and/or doping would ever admit to it? The record of sports history is that almost never has anybody ever admitted to cheating.

So only a couple of days ago the Chinese claim the discrepancies are due to clerical errors. This was not their position even last week. Their explanation is very convenient - it proves nothing and is believable only if you want to believe it. They are saying that if you don't believe us you are calling the Chinese people liars. The problem is that this argument is a red herring and has nothing to do with the issues of whether the gymnasts are underaged and/or whether the Chinese authorities have manipulated facts in the past and primary documents in the present to cover their tracks.

As Henry David Thoreau said: Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk. The Chinese cats are smiling while they eat their trout.

Carey Shenkman said...

Hey, this is Carey.

I think Cui's statement was to be expected. That seems to be the general strategy of this government:
a) Lie/cheat/censor
b) Play stupid and ignore compelling evidence, expecting others to play dumb
c) When b) fails, address said compelling evidence with additional application of step b).

Read:

1) Several -unique- documents were found implicating these girl's ages.
2) ...hosted on the servers of the Chinese government, which holds claim to one of the most meticulous, information-monitoring bureaucracies in the world.
3) After exposure, these documents have mysteriously disappeared off caches from Google. What is there to hide?
4) Censorship and lies are not new in the Beijing 2008 Olympics, from the infamous lip-syncing stint to Reporters Without Borders deeming their journalism experience there deplorable.
5) Cui states that she had moved (when, I feel, is trivial) and that these unique figures are simply errors.

Observations:
-I might raise that stating the date when this girl switched seems irrelevant. So what, even if he has his dates right?

IOC: "We're slightly concerned as people are claiming that others might be talking that perhaps your athletes have inconsistencies in their ages."
CUI: "One of the girls switched teams last year. And the other girls- well, I'm not going to address that. Switched teams. See, that's consistent with your information. Consistency! "
IOC: "Oh, ok, I'm convinced."

-One needs to take contextual evidence of the damning list of deceptions that have occurred throughout these games, and use those, in light of the reasonable peculiarity of so many 'administrative mistakes' in one event within such an exacting regime, to arrive at the truth.

The CONCLUSION: Cui is talking out of his ass.

Seriously, how can it be any less obvious? Just like our karaoke experience, we're not seeing what we're hearing. The cat is out of the bag for the world to see. Well, for everyone except the IOC, apparently.

Medicine has advanced so far- I wonder if they can do spine transplants for the IOC.

omomo said...

Dear Mr. Cui:
Have you not heard of Watergate? The more you try to cover up, the bigger shame you bring to China...

China will be much better off if you can just be a man and admit that you were blinded by the gold medal rush.

I feel very sorry for those little girls and their families. They are probably scare to death right now.

Will said...

DengLinlinFan - I agree with your points, but you're masking the fact that new information has come to light that the IOC couldn't disregard.

Also, let's tone down the stereotyping... And please, read about the processes and steps that were taken from day one by the IOC. You're ideas about how this has unfolded are just plain ignorant.

stella-gemella said...

Here's the problem with the whole "this is sour grapes because the Americans are bitter" argument.

a. USA Gymnastics brought this matter to the IOC/FIG well BEFORE the start of the Olympic Games. If the situation had been properly investigated then, we wouldn't be here now.

b. Since the closure of the original inquiry before the Olympics, USA Gymnastics HAS NOT made any formal move or put in a request to the IOC or FIG to investigate this.

c. The American gymnasts themselves have been completely neutral in the press in their comments. In fact, if you look through press quotes, there are many where the gymnasts directly compliment the performance of the Chinese girls. The American press, including the New York Times' own gymnastics commentators, have supported the fact that the Chinese team was more prepared and had a greater difficulty level.

d. Again, the inquiry that is happening now was NOT instigated by USA Gymnastics, but by the IOC and the FIG, upon seeing that the discrepancies in the documents are still in the news and aren't going away. The head of the FIG is Italian. The head of the IOC is Belgian. None of the leaders of these organizations are American or hold American interests.

e. Regardless of which country brought this up at first, the matter has implications for the entire competition and all the competitors. If China had cheated by some other means, say, doping, would anyone think that it was wrong to bring it up or suggest an inquiry? Surely not.

f. Other nations have produced false documents and forged their gymnasts' ages, so it isn't as if this is something wildly unusual that is suddenly being brought up out of nowhere.

stella-gemella said...

Oh, and one more important point that bears repeating is that if the allegations turn out to be true and accepted by the FIG and IOC, and the Chinese gymnasts are stripped of their medals, the Americans don't actually have a lot to gain.

Team: Yes, they'd be upgraded to the team gold medal. However, it's highly unlikely they'd be feted as the Mag7 was in 1996. The American team knows they weren't the best in Beijing and they're not going to pretend they were. The gymnasts on the team have enough individual accomplishments to promote instead.

Vault: would not change. Cheng Fei won the bronze and she is not under investigation.

Beam: See Vault.

Floor: No Chinese on the podium at all; no change.

Bars: Medals would go to Nastia Liukin (USA), Beth Tweddle (UK) and Anastasia Koval (UKR). Since Liukin did technically tie with He Kexin and FIG president Bruno Grandi expressed his wish to award two golds instead of using a tiebreaker, I can't see this promotion as being undeserved. In other Olympics, such as 1992 or 1996, Liukin and He WOULD have shared gold.

AA: the bronze would go to Ksenia Semenova (RUS).

Heather said...

denglinlinfan: I completely agree that this should have been taken care of before the games, you're absolutely right on that issue. The problem is, hindsight sure is 20/20, isn't it? Back in June there hadn't been nearly as much information available, not as many people had started digging, and we didn't have anything quite as conclusive. At that point, the US team DID lodge a protest, which therefore negates your entire argument.

This isn't just about sour grapes. If it was, then people within China wouldn't be assisting with the cause to find the truth. Personally, I still would have been just as upset with the Chinese team cheating if they had only won silver, because guess what, there were other countries competing besides just the US and China. There were other countries there too who played by the rules and competed with their whole hearts. They were cheated out of their chance to compete fairly by another team breaking the rules. Who knows what other countries could have been on the medal stand if China had followed the rules. It would have been an entirely different Olympics with an entirely different outcome. Who knows what other countries could have medaled if their right to a fair contest hadn't been violated.
Also, look at it this way - take the names of the countries away, stop thinking about it in terms of East vs West. Instead, think of it a little more personally. If you had spent your entire life training for one moment, following the rules, doing everything by the book, just hoping for that one chance to compete fairly against the best in the world... only to be confronted by someone who cheated, who then robs you of your chance to compete fairly at the one competition you've been dreaming about your whole life, how would you feel? You work your butt off, you follow the rules your whole life, but someone else who cheats gets the medal. Don't you think you'd be pissed off too?

And no, I'm not just talking about the Americans. There were other girls from other countries who were robbed of their fair chance too. Because this isn't just about the US and China. The US is NOT the only team or country that's protesting China's behavior. So please put your own obviously vindictive and spiteful feelings against the US aside and look at this from an unbiased point of view. This is about cheating, this is about violating the rules, this is about the systematic suppression of the truth by the Chinese government. If any other country had been guilty of the same behavior, I'm sure we'd all be going after them with the same fervor and dedication. I know I sure as hell would be.

Lastly, there's no reason for you to personally insult the members of the US gymnastics team. As far as I'm aware, Stryde Hax has never once uttered a single insult directed toward any of the Chinese athletes. I certainly haven't either. There's no reason to make this personal, because this is about the government's unethical and duplicitous behavior. No one's insulting your beloved Deng Linlin, so there's no reason for you to be so needlessly venomous.

Cindy said...

The General Administration of Sports of China issued rules regarding registration and exchange of athletes back in 2003. Here is the link:
http://www.sport.gov.cn/n16/n33193/n33208/n33433/n33688/127349.html

In particular, the rule concerning athlete’s age reads:
第三十一条 运动员的注册年龄,以首次注册时公安部门出具的户籍证明原件和运动员本人的身份证原件为准。
Rule No. 31:Athlete's registered age shall be [his/her] first-time registered age as ascertained by both the original household registration certificate issued by public security bureau and the athlete’s own original national identification card.

In 2005, Beijing sports bureau registered He Kexin into the national database for the first time. He's birth date was given as 1/1/1994. Presumably this date had been ascertained by her household registration certificate and her national ID card.

In 2006, He was exchanged from Beijing to Wuhan, which as the host city for the 6th intercity games, wanted to win as many gold medals as possible. On the published exchange list, He's birth date was also 1/1/1994.

All 6 members of the Chinese female gymnastic team can be found on the 2005 registration list. The others are:
Sequence No./ Name/ Gender/ BOD / Ancestry/ Place of Birth/ Registered by/ Remarks
385/ Cheng Fei/ Female/ 1988-05-29/ Hubei/ Wuhan/ Hubei/ Confirmed
420/ Deng Linlin/ Female/ 1992-4-21/ Fuyang/ Fuyang/ Anhui/ Confirmed
452/ Li Shanshan/ Female/ 1992-2-22/ Hubei/ Huangshi/ Guangdong/ Confirmed
551/ Yang Yilin/ Female/ 1993-8-26/ Guangdong/ Guangzhou/ Guangdong/ Confirmed
693/ Jiang Yuyuan/ Female/ 1991.10.01/ Liuzhou/ / Zhejiang/ Confirmed
799/ He Kexin/ Female/ 1994.1.01/ Beijing/ Beijing/ Beijing Sports Bureau/ First-time

Yang Yilin’s birth date was also given as 1993-8-26 on GAS’s list of registered gymnasts in 2004.

Keng said...

It is possible that they reduced her age from 16 to 14. because of the requirements at the city games:

This doc indicates that women gymnasts age are: 1994/1/1 til 1996/12/31

http://www.sport.gov.cn/n16/n33193/n33208/n33433/n33673/144366.html

I suspect He's birthday is not even 1/1. We will never know.

Stryde said...

Cindy, what do you think of the birthday listed for Jiang Yuyuan? As bobby has pointed out there are many instances of a cited birthday in 1991. How would you reconcile this with the document I linked earlier (which is still available!). Was an age mistake just made much earlier? Genuinely curious about your thoughts here. -stryde

Cara said...

I've been trying my best to keep up with all of the information floating around, and the one piece I am most curious about is the national IDs with embedded birthdates, which sound like the most indisputable form of identification.

My question is, are there documents that show changing ID #s for any of the athletes in order for their documented birthdays to match the national ID? If so, is there a possibility that the falsified number would correctly match another citizen? Since each number must by its nature be unique, it would be especially damning for there to be a discrepancy in that way. I don't know if any of the registries require that sort of information, but it would be helpful to connect the athletes to their #s as opposed to the seeming misinterpretation of names that some have argued.

This may be a pipe dream of floating information, but it's interesting to think about nonetheless.

Heather said...

Just wanted to say, I've mirrored the 05ticao document you mentioned in the update. Here's the link: http://www.heathershow.com/media/05ticao.htm
Hope this is helpful! I also hope this isn't a duplicate of all the other files I've mirrored - there are just so many to keep track of now! :) Anyway, if you need any more mirrored, let me know - I have practically limitless web space and I'm happy to share! :)

Cindy said...

Jiang Yuyuan's 2005 registered birth year was 1991; it was changed to 1993 in 2007 by Wenzhou Sports Bureau perhaps to make her eligible for the 2007 provincial youth games. General Administration of Sports rules say in case of age disagreement, the earliest oldest registered age takes precedence. This is because many Chinese competitions, such as the intercity games and the youth games, have upper age limits and local sports bureaus sometimes lower their athletes ages to make them eligible. For this reason I think the 1991 birth year for Jiang was more reliable.

Another gymnast whose age may be changed upward is Yang Yilin because her 2005 and 2006 registrations both gave the birth year of 1993.

As for keng's question whether He Kexin's age was lowered so she could participate in the 2007 intercity games, I would like to point out that when in 2005 she first registered a birth year of 1994, the rules for the intercity games had not been published yet. A draft version of the rules came out in March 2006.

aaaaaa said...

I suggest you to pay attention to the 6th urban games, which is hold in Wuhan on November 2007. The girl,who was talked about by Cui Dalin is the champion of uneven bars in 6th urban games. Cui Dalin said the girl was born in 1992.1.01,but the rule of 6th urban games(http://www.sport.gov.cn/n16/n33193/n33208/n33433/n33673/144366.html) said that the WAG player must be borned between 1994.1.01 to 1996.12.31.
(体 操
男子:1991年1月1日至1993年12月31日出生

团体比赛1990年1月1日至12月31日出生可报2人

女子:1994年1月1日至1996年12月31日出生

团体比赛1993年1月1日至12月31日出生可报2人 )

aaaaaa said...

I suggest you to pay attention to the 6th urban games(http://www.wuhan2007.org.cn/), which is hold in Wuhan on November 2007. The girl,who was talked about by Cui Dalin is the champion of uneven bars in 6th urban games. Cui Dalin said the girl was born in 1992.1.01,but the rule of 6th urban games(http://www.sport.gov.cn/n16/n33193/n33208/n33433/n33673/144366.html) said that the WAG player must be borned between 1994.1.01 to 1996.12.31.
(体 操
男子:1991年1月1日至1993年12月31日出生

团体比赛1990年1月1日至12月31日出生可报2人

女子:1994年1月1日至1996年12月31日出生

团体比赛1993年1月1日至12月31日出生可报2人 )

DengLinlinFan said...

In Defense of The Little One, The Incomprable Miss Deng Linlin.

Offering a fresh new perspective on the topic that is sweeping the nation.

In response to: WILL , Stella-Gemella, and Heather.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post. After careful consideration, I to believe I am being a Bit harsh in my views towards the US womans gymnastics team, and will indeed " Take my foot off the gas " and tone down my "venomous" remark's.

This whole thing has struck quite a nerve with me. First, I in no way condone the actions of the chinese government or their decision to enter "under-aged" gymnasts in the Olympics - I.E. ( CHEAT )

Had procedure been followed properly or this matter handled correctly from the beginning I do not believe it would have been necessary ( IN MY MIND ) to make any comments at all regarding this issue. But the matter was indeed handled " Horribly "

As a result of the actions ( OR LACK OF ) by the FIG. HE KEXIN, JIANG YUYUAN, YANG YILIN and of Course DENG LINLIN, were introduced to me and indeed the rest of the world. Had certain groups been doing their job's as they should have been, this "Introduction" never would have occured.

Through effort, skill, ability, performance and indeed Beauty these young ladies endeared themselves to my heart, I.E. - They became real to me.

And after reading post after post after post about (Perfect,Beautiful Amercian Girls) and (Horrible,Ugly,Dispicable,Cheating Chinese Girls), I became angry and indeed "Venomous" and some of my remarks have demonstrated this.

Who was going to lookout for the Chinese Girls?, What about them?,What about their hopes and dreams?,What about what they trained soo hard for? ( and actually had this skill to accomplish ), What about their Happiness?, The way everyone is talking, it is like the Chinese girls don't count because their government and coachs have made a very bad decision. WELL THEY DO COUNT!!!

Any attack's pointed towards the Chinese government or their policies is fine by me, just as long as you leave these sweet young ladies out of it. THEY ARE INNOCENT and THEIR HAPPINESS COUNTS!!!

fifi said...

Hey Stryde, did you see this? Xrays could settle the issue: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-sci-gymnasts23-2008aug23,0,723391.story

Sidney said...

What all the other evidence from their lives like primary and secondary school photos. Are not chinese students pictured with their peers every year in school. Don't they keep track of their peer throughout their lives from their elementary school experiences. What about tracking down their classmates photos and checking the ages of the classmates. Seems like one could build a rather full history of the girls by comparing them with their school peers/class levels. Either these kids were entered into the equivilant of kindergarden at age 3 or 5? and go from there. I can't imagine China could systematically wipe out all the classmates/classmate photos unless these girls didn't attend normal school systems. I can't imagine that they wouldn't have class photos for each year going back and one could check the ages of their peers to benchmark the situation.

Sidney said...

I've read that science can't calculate the ages of the gymnasts with much degree of accuracy within 2 years but I suggest someone grab samples to use for cloning, hand it off to the cloners and wait 13-16 years to see when the ages of the clones match up with the gymnasts.

Tom said...

It is interesting that while the high profile Huffington post is blocked in China, your blog, a big source of attention to this story, is not. It seems to indicate that the technicians who were ordered to block HuffPost did not make the move to block your site. They no doubt have the skills to do so, but they aren't taking that initiative, only following the instructions of their less tech savvy superiors to the letter. This in itself is a statement, namely, that they aren't personally motivated to keep your work from being read in China. In fact, they may even feel a bit of hope in knowing that their bosses can't control it all.

Tom said...

A week ago, a lot of people here in China were excited about the games. They are much less willing to talk about them now because of the assorted embarrassments their government has visited upon them. Even Liu Xiang's injury is painful. Not only because he couldn't compete but in what it says about a gov't that cares about a medal more than the health of it's people. It's quite sad to see. The CCP surrounds itself with it's sycophants in the media and official organizations while the people are left alone to suffer the humiliation by themselves. What was meant to be great moment in their collective memory is now a topic of conversation that is best avoided.

Blog-Da-Bing said...

chloe / all what if Wuhan was telling the truth all along untill the states sports body want he on the china gymnastics team?

garyandyvonne said...

There ain't nuthin' more powerful than the smell of mendacity! - Harvey ‘Big Daddy’ Pollitt [Burl Ives], Cat on a Hot Tin Roof (1958)

I think most of us would agree that the original situation and subsequent actions by the Chinese don't pass the smell test. The really interesting question is what can be done by the public to challenge Big Brother in this and similar situations. This is truly back to the future of Orwell's 1984.

Let's take the weapons of mass destruction fiasco as a second example. How can the public challenge authorities who claim that they have information and/or evidence that justifies an action and/or decision?

There are two different, but coupled issues involved. First, the veracity of the information, and second, the intentions and motivations of the people using the information.

Everybody now realizes that the evidence of weapons of mass destruction was wrong, but when was it realized and accepted as wrong by the public? The process of damage control by the Bush administration is very interesting and relevant to the issue of the Chinese gymnasts. The Bush administration could not admit they promoted and/or used false information, so their approach was to detach themselves in controlled steps. First, blame the accuracy of the source of the information. [Just like the Chinese authorities are doing now.] Second, protect the integrity of the authorities by claiming that they wanted objective truthful information and acted honestly based on the assumption that the information was accurate. In the end, the Bush administration took the position that they acted honorably with information they assumed was honorable and accurate. The error was that somebody made a clerical mistake and the information wasn't accurate, but that doesn't really matter because everybody acted honorably with good intentions.

So how does one split the issues of accuracy of information and honesty of intentions? We may be at a crossroad like the student caught cheating who claims that he or she wasn't cheating. Students often are able to decouple the evidence of cheating from an intent to cheat. Then their defense is that "you can't prove I (intended to) cheated" which is different from the issue of two pieces of work being too similar.

Let's assume that the Chinese gymnasts are underaged. It is impossible that the Chinese authorities would ever admit it even if they were not directly aware of the original source of "wrong information" on the Internet that they are now working 24/7 to correct [aka alter]. To turn this around, is there anybody reading this blog who believes the Chinese would or could now admit that their gymnasts were underaged?

Bottom line. The Chinese now claim [as to be expected] that (1) the inconsistencies are all innocent clerical mistakes and (2) there was never any attempt to cheat the system. Is there any way of demonstrating (2) is wrong and the "errors" are not innocent but a deliberate attempt by the Chinese to cheat the system. To me it seems like the Bush administration's weapons of mass destruction claims and later damage control. To paraphrase Abraham Lincoln: This is the sort of thing you'll believe if you want to believe this sort of thing.

P.S. (1) Am I the only person who is wondering about the wording of the recent "explanations" by the Chinese authorities? It reminds me of Bill Clinton's "it all depends on the meaning of 'is'. Maybe it is a "lost in translation" issue, but the wording seems loose enough to invite alter interpretations. Words are tricky and can be manipulated as Clinton apply demonstrated, especially if one is dealing with situations in the past.

(2) The issues of paperless elections and Internet censorship should always be kept in mind as related issues which we need to focus on long after the Chinese get to walk away with all their medals.

Carey Shenkman said...

Looks like the most recent document has been taken down. I was beginning to think that after our posts, they would purposefully leave it up there and say, "Censorship? What censorship?"

Yet of course, they did the usual, letting the story unfold like a predictable cliche.

Rob Miller, Ph.D. said...

The spin machine is striking back. On my blog I received a comment from an anonymous poster about a YouTube video of Jiang Yuyuan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk8ZwHd2GA8

We can see Jiang apparently citing her age as 12 and the video purports that the footage was from 2003, making her 17 right now.

It took me a while to learn Chinese numbers and actually hear what they were saying. It seems she did say 12, but the way they edited it, the question was posed to another girl and Jiang answered. This is not an implausible style of presentation, but it leaves open the tiny window of doubt of exactly what question she was answering when she said, "12."

But there's nothing in the video to prove the interview took place in 2003. The video itself was produced in 2008.

Even if the interview did occur in 2003, China could have anticipated her competing in 2008 and had her lie about her age back then.

Nevertheless, it changes nothing with respect to the evidence regarding He and Deng.

BTW, the guy who posted this video actually suggested your evidence was the result of CIA hacking (seriously!)

I pointed out that the Deputy Sports Minister referred to your data as a "mistake" and never suggested it had been maliciously altered by an external party. The Dpty Minister's statement actually validates the authenticity of the documents, although he denies its accuracy.

Jiang was introduced at the Doha games last year as being 14 years old. The introduction was in Arabic, so it's possible that none of the Chinese understood it and therefore wouldn't object to it. Nevertheless, the announcer didn't make up her age in a vacuum - they provided the information.

Rob Miller, Ph.D. said...

DengLinlin fan, you need to take a Valium. There is no sour grapes here. It's all about rules and fair-play, and the American team isn't the one protesting this.

FYI, the issue of their ages was brought up by the semi-independent Chinese news media prior to the Games. This isn't a new development nor the result of second-place bitterness.

Frankly, if the Chinese girls are under age, I think they should lose their Gold, the Americans can keep their well-deserved Silver, and the British girl who placed fourth will share the Bronze with whomever it was who got that.

You have a lot of nerve being indignant about stereotypes when you rail against "whiny Americans" who are overpaid by corporations. The American girls were normal people who worked very hard for a dream of personal achievement. The Chinese team, probably equally self-motivated, were nonetheless a crop harvested from the vast fields of citizens to feed the national ego.

yanlange said...

Hi, I looked some chinese web sites, and found some people claiming to be her classmates were born 1994. Of couse they will be silent if you ask them now. If we can find one class photo, with date on it, and the age of those classmates (will chinese government go that far to fake every classmates's age? not sure...), I am quite convinced that He's age is faked. According to what I read, He was not a very promising athelet at the beginning, so there is no plan in place ahead of time to prepare her for the Olympics. It happened later after her winning of the national city games then she was picked to join the Olympic team. China started taking care of her age then, but a bit too late. It is not completely impossible, but those chinese people did not work hard enough to cover all tracks....

bobby fletcher said...

Here's an update on the 2nd IOC/FIG investigation:

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/sports/olympics/story/4d336ec9403fdf71862574b0000fd048?OpenDocument

"The international federation has required the delivery of birth certificates and all the documents like family books, entries in schools and things like that," Rogge said. "They have received the documents, and at first sight it seems to be OK."

robjones3030 said...

By now it's obvious the issue isn't a lack of proof, proof is abundant... it is the lack of willingness to address it.

Many even acknowledge the duplicity but pass off attempts to enforce the rules against the host as "whining".

I'm sure they'd be just as understanding if the US won gold with a gymnastics team packed with participants our own records proved ineligible.

I'm just as sure those same people would not mind if the USOC, faced with evidence of willful acts of forgery, altered or removed years of previously published age verifications that inconveniently disagreed current claims.

Face it... the Chinese gymnasts weren't the only ones at the games missing secondary sexual characteristics normally developed by a certain age. The IOC's Jacques Rogge and the FIG's Bruni have proven to be missing them as well.

Superdave said...

@ deng: this is not about the USA vs. China. The subject is the disappearance of official chinese documents. And please, only post your essay once, we read it the first time (and scrolled straight past it the second time). I admire your nationalism, but save the red flag waving for another subject.

excellent work stryde: a fascinating blog which I return to daily for updates. All evidence so far points to a corrupt Chinese government.

DengLinlinFan said...

In Defense of The Little One, The Incomprable Miss Deng Linlin.

Offering a fresh new perspective on the topic that is sweeping the nation.

In Response to: Will, Stella-Gemella, and Heather.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post. After careful consideration, I to believe I am being a Bit harsh in my views towards the US womans gymnastics team, and will indeed ” Take my foot off the gas ” and tone down my “venomous” remark’s.

This whole thing has struck quite a nerve with me. First, I in no way condone the actions of the chinese government or their decision to enter “under-aged” gymnasts in the Olympics - I.E. ( CHEAT )

Had procedure been followed properly or this matter handled correctly from the beginning I do not believe it would have been necessary ( IN MY MIND ) to make any comments at all regarding this issue. But the matter was indeed handled ” Horribly ”

As a result of the actions ( OR LACK OF ) by the FIG. HE KEXIN, JIANG YUYUAN, YANG YILIN and of Course DENG LINLIN, were introduced to me and indeed the rest of the world. Had certain groups been doing their job’s as they should have been, this “Introduction” never would have occured.

Through effort, skill, ability, performance and indeed Beauty these young ladies endeared themselves to my heart, I.E. - They became real to me.

And after reading post after post after post about (Perfect,Beautiful Amercian Girls) and (Horrible,Ugly,Dispicable,Cheating Chinese Girls), I became angry and indeed “Venomous” and some of my remarks have demonstrated this.

Who was going to lookout for the Chinese Girls?, What about them?,What about their hopes and dreams?,What about what they trained soo hard for? ( and actually had this skill to accomplish ), What about their Happiness?, The way everyone is talking, it is like the Chinese girls don’t count because their government and coachs have made a very bad decision. WELL THEY DO COUNT!!!

Any attack’s pointed towards the Chinese government or their policies is fine by me, just as long as you leave these sweet young ladies out of it. THEY ARE INNOCENT and THEIR HAPPINESS COUNTS!!!

diogenes said...

www.thestar.com/article/483534

Aug 22, 2008 01:30 AM

After winning the first of two golds at these Games, He was asked her age by reporters.

"My real age is 16," she said. "I don't care what other people say."


My real age?
As compared to what?

When does a person need to qualify their age as being 'real'?
In my experience, usually when they're trying to convince people of something that is un-real.

Being that our age is as personal a vanity to us as our reflection in the mirror, "I'm sixteen! I'm sixteen! I'm sixteen!" or something the like, I would expect from a teenage girl having her identity probed - especially so, this girl in a situation with so much at stake.

He Kexin's measured reply strikes me as odd. It leaves me suspicious, that it's someone wanting to keep their cake with the cherry on top (gold medals and a lifetime of perks, fame etc.) intact, and that she "doesn't care what other people say", as if her age is decided by argument. Then what, the rest of us need not deal with factual reality in the process?

The truth we're being offered doesn't weigh up with the discrepancies in evidence.

Stryde said...

"My real age?
As compared to what?"

A frequent poster to this blog, Cindy, has explained to me that Chinese people traditionally have two ages, a real age and a virtual age. I can't speak to it because I'm far from an authority on the culture. But it is my hope she'll write it up, it's very interesting and she's a good writer to boot. -stryde.

Cindy said...

Various Chinese news reports mentioned that He Kexin entered a famous sports school at age 8 and two years later joined Beijing gymnastic team. This is interesting,because the 2004 national gymnasts registration list did not have He on it and the 2005 list showed He to be a "first time registrant."

Chinese athletes cannot compete in national events without registration. The registration period for 2004 was from December 2003 to January 2004. This means He must have joined Beijing's team after January 2004 when she was 10.

The 2004 registration list has also disappeared from both the government website and baidu cache.

garyandyvonne said...

"My real age is 16," she said. "I don't care what other people say."

How do you define age?

What about the Chinese tradition of starting age at conception? Is this a common practice or an urban legend? This could end up similar to Clinton's 'is' argument. Are we sure we are all talking about the same meaning of age when discussing the age of the Chinese gymnasts?

stella-gemella said...

RE: the Chinese falsifying ages to make gymnasts younger for domestic competitions: this really does not help their case here. It does the opposite: it bolsters the argument that the Powers That Be within the Federation or government are willing to change ages for these girls when and how it suits them.

Also, in terms of age falsification among other countries' nations: it's possible, but it isn't all about the physical appearance of the gymnasts. Gymnastics training can delay puberty, especially when eating disorders are thrown into the mix, and coaches traditionally seek out girls who are not destined to be tall. At the 1996 Olympics, for instance, Dominique Moceanu looked about 11. She was absolutely legally of age to be there. Alexandra Marinescu of Romania was taller and far more mature looking than Dominique and some of the other competitors, and SHE was actually the underage girl. So while it can be helpful, it's dangerous to do this by outward appearance alone. The paper trail here with the Chinese gymnasts speaks for itself.

And DengLinlin fan, thank you for your reasonable and thought-out response. You bring up a very valid point that bears remembering, which is that whatever is going on, these gymnasts themselves are not at fault. These are minor children who have been manipulated by their government, who have had to endure extended scrutiny from the international press, and who are probably in a very uncomfortable position right now. They, of course, should be treated with compassion because their government's sins are not theirs. The criticism here has been directed toward the adults who did this, and that is how it should remain

Cindy said...

According to Chinese news report, a journalist asked He Kexin “你确定自己是16岁吗?”
This is a strange question in Chinese, which was perhaps translated from the English question "Are you sure you are 16 years old?" (He does not understand English.) The answer He gave is equally strange: “我确定自己16岁了,大家知道就可以了,我并不管别人怎么说。” Translation: "I am sure/decide/ascertain that I am 16 years old. It's OK everybody knows. I don't care what others say."

He Kexin's answer has nothing to do with Chinese concepts of actual (or real) age and virtual age.

Traditionally, Chinese calculate age in the following way: a person is one year old at birth and grows one year at each Chinese New Year which happens on a lunar calendar and is around late January or early February. This traditional age is called "virtual age" or 虚岁.

One's age calculated in the western way is known as "actual age" or 实岁. One should use actual age on official records, such as household registration, school enrollment, passport, etc.

Though few urban Chinese use virtual age anymore, many rural folk still do. One's virtual age may be up to 2 years older than one's actual age. Take He Kexin for example. If she were born on 1/1/1994, her virtual age was 1 at birth and became 2 on 2/14/1994 (Chinese New Year in 1994). When He answered that she was 16, she didn't qualify her age as virtual or actual.

It's conceivable that officials justified age fudging by using a different cultural interpretation of FIG's age rule and modified documents to make "virtual age" real.

This appeared to have happened at least once before. Chinese gymnast Yang Yun won two bronze medals at the 2000 Sydney Olympic Games. A Hunan sports official praised her achievement and said in the year-end speech that year, Yang's "real age was only 14." Yang herself later said in a Chinese TV show that she was 14 in Sydney, but her registered birthday shows she was born in 1984.

johnny angry said...

One of the news clips from a year
back indicate to me that the chinese girls had no idea or care that thier age would be challenged.
IMO the next area of investigation
should center around the age of the
parents and the dates of them giving birth. These would be
hospital documents distinct from
a birth certificate.
(Probably outside the domain of the hacker) Thanks JA

Heather said...

Denglinlinfan - Thank you very much for acknowledging the tone of your previous comments and for apologizing for it, I appreciate that very much.
But I do want to tell you that, at least for me, I do care very much for the Chinese gymnasts. I don't by any means think that they're ugly or that their feelings don't count! I think they're absolutely darling, incredibly talented, and that they were definitely victimized by the Chinese government shrouding their gymnastic careers in political lies and deception.
But honestly, I care more about their physical and emotional safety than I do about their feelings about a gold medal that may have been won through less than honest means. The fact still remains that those poor girls were taken from their families when they were still small children, so young that they could not make the conscious decision for themselves that they wanted to dedicate their lives to gymnastics. It wasn't their decision to become gymnasts, not in the beginning - it was the decision of the government. In my opinion - which is all it is - I think that's wrong.
The perfect example of that is Cheng Fei. My heart broke for her when I heard her story! So many times throughout her life, she wanted to quit gymnastics and return to her family. Even as recently as this past year, she again begged her coaches to let her return home. She said she was hurting, both physically from injuries and emotionally from the pain of not knowing her own family. She wanted to go home, she hadn't even seen the home in which her parents lived! Yet she was denied that right to see her parents, to be loved by them, to be raised by them.
Instead she was raised in a government-run machine that churns out gymnasts. And her reward for doing well in this Olympics? Finally, after her entire career, she finally gets to see the home her parents live in for the very first time.
Don't you think that's sad? Don't you think that it's horrible how that poor girl has been made to suffer? She's said herself that her heart is broken and she wants to see her family more than anything else. Shouldn't she have that right? Shouldn't she be able to make the decision whether she wants to be a gymnast or be loved by her parents? Heck, why can't she have both?! It wouldn't be so bad if she could at least live with her family and still be a gymnast. But no, she can't even have that.
And that's just the story of one successful gymnast who's actually lived through all the heart-break and injury and made it to a point where she was successful. Sure, we've been introduced to these beautiful, talented young women - Deng Linlin, Jiang Yuyuan, He Kexin. But what about the girls we don't see? What about the ones who didn't make it past the injuries and heart break? What about the ones who, despite all their best efforts, just weren't good enough?
There have been so many stories surfacing over the past several years about the athletes that weren't good enough, despite their best efforts. They're cast out, their families left homeless, their bodies twisted and mangled from being forced through rigorous training schedules before their bodies were mature enough to handle it. Yes, we should care about the feelings of the gymnasts at the Olympics, but I also care about those who didn't make it to that point, the ones who have been cast aside because they weren't good enough. They're hurting, moreso than any of the gymnasts on that Olympics team who are wrapped up in this scandal right now. But are they getting any of your attention right now? Do they deserve your attention, and mine? Yes, they do.
They're the reason that I'm so keen to help out with this whole drudging up of the truth, they're the reason I want the Chinese government to confront their deceit, admit it to the world, and face the consequences. Because that seems like the first step in a very long but crucial road to reform. The training system in China needs to be changed, for the sake of the children it victimizes - for those who get wrapped up in political lies, for those who are trained to hard, for those who are cast aside; for everyone who's been thrown into that horrible system and left broken-hearted.
I'm sorry that other people have been harsh about the Chinese gymnasts at the Olympics - they don't deserve to be called ugly or anything like that. But I can tell you with all honesty I've never thought or said such things. And in fact, the reason I care so much about this fight is because I care so much about those athletes, and I want to see a change in the system for their sake.